What do you believe and why?

[jester13]

I believe in science and humans. I think most religion is about control and power.Used to just exploit people who are missing something in thier lives or are going through a tough time. i do believe there are some genuine nice non crazy people,who like the social aspect of it.But I like to learn and question anything.
-jess

[sultryscorpio]

."The important thing is not to stop questioning". That statement has always had an effect on me. The thing about religion is that its not perfect, because theres always something new to discover.

[andy41]

`To believe in religion is to believe in utopia,people say science dos'nt answer everything,well it answers more than religion,any philosiphy you can't ask
why,what,when,where,how is just totaly pathetic,I saw Billy Graham on TV
one time saying reason and logic only get you so far,well I am an Atheist
because I believe it to be the trooth weather its good,bad,indiferent to humanity as a whole is erelivent.You've got to believe in something they say
meaning god,reason and logic are the only thing l believe in,to believe in god to me you would need a theory of how the universe was created,the created in 7 days by majic is not a theory.My hero groing up was Carl Sagan.

[greycloud24]

`i was born into a peculiar family and raised until i was 14 by my mother who was a Jehovah's Witness. I didn't like the religion and managed to bounce around through many beliefs. eventually i declared myself pagan and said that any god that is beleived by someone has the power to effect the world through that person.
later i realized that what i really meant is that no god is really true, but the idea of gods is powerful. this beleif in a god has real consequences in the world, some are good some are bad. the problem is that some of the bad ones are really really bad. now i am anti dogmatic and hope that people will open their eyes and see what religion has done for us and is doing for us now.
i am affraid that our holy president is attempting to launch us into a holy war in the name of god.
i am upset that the least trusted minority in america happens to be the most educated minority in america. it astounds me that people can trust in modern medicine yet deny the basis for the technology that made that medicine possable.
it seems to me that a fundamental lack of education is what perpetuates religion. we must strive for a more inteligent and less religous society if we want to solve the problems of the modern world.

[exene (deleted)]

Hello... I consider myself an agnostic, but I am somewhat interested in paganism / polytheistic themes. I believe in the balance of nature and philosophy as a natural science. I wish people used the more logical side of their brains when discussing things like the possilbility of a higher being; it seems like that is becoming a dying art in our society today.

[murky (deleted)]

I was raised as an Atheist and skeptic by my parents. They went through all the struggles you did. I believe the reason I'm an Atheist is, in a word, NUNS.
My parents were forced to go to Catholic schools where they were psychologically abused and beaten by crazy old bat nuns with rulers. When I see nuns on the street, I always show them the same courtesy I would show anyone else, but I'm very suspicious that under their bizarrely outmoded hats and behind their serene blissful faces lurks pure evil in every definition of the word.
My mom always said the baby boom produced more kids than the country was ready for, so nuns were pressed into service as teachers. The only problem was that they were very old women who never ever planned on having children of their own. So, all of a sudden they were in charge of everyone else's children and they had no idea what to do with them. If i didn't know better, I'd say it sounded like God was playing a little joke on them.

[placeboo]

I agree with two arguments presented here: that religion is an explanation for the immediate known universe and that it is a form of control. They both center around the theme of control and can be readily *nalyzed by what we've learned in our own educational experiences. For the natural phenomena like was mentioned, there became associated. As understanding grew religion grew more sophisticated to deal with the stars and the planets and the complicated physics around us. Religion morphs. Catholicism does it all the time, as does 'Scientology' (which isn't a religion), etc. The only ones that don't change to a great degree are the eastern religions, which are better established and haved already gone through many of those pangs. These center on humankind's obsession with controlling our immediate surroundings.
As a form of control, it does control the masses. Catholicism had enough influence during the middle ages to supplant kings and queens. We hear numerous stories, and unfortunately often, about crazy sects not only in the USA but around the world who control their members and the children. Its a sad sad thing.
It is my firm belief religion exists for these two facts, and will continue to exist far into the future, even into the stars if we make it that far.
As atheists, adnostics, or general non-believers/non-religious folk we must remain strong and not cave and fight the good fight. Our brains have advanced this far through evolution. Let's not stagnate our progress.

[picco]

[tiye_PREV (deleted)]

I'm an Agnostic Atheist. I do not believe that God or Satan exists. I do not know if God does or does not exist or how to proove either. At the same time, if there is proof that there is a God, I will not worship him/her/it or become a believer. (.......waving fists towards non-existing beings in the sky.)

[tebk25]

.If you'll excuse the choice of words... AMEN!

[sniprklr]

`Ok I tried to post this in my own article but the god damn sponsor bar runs over it... UGG... So I will post this as a reply to this thread because this thread is relevant to my article.. Warning though, it is LONG! it's a condensed version of an 80 page paper.. It is also a compilation of common arguments I've had with Creationists.. You can find these here:

http://pwaibel.newsvine.com/_news/2009/ ... ism-its-on
http://nearing.newsvine.com/_news/2009/ ... and-buddha
http://krishna109.newsvine.com/_news/20 ... rrelations


Feel free to read it or ignore it.. But it's a good read on existence

I will post it below this post...

[sniprklr]

Important Definitions
(feel free to skip this section)

UNIVERSAL SET / SET OF ALL SETS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_set

A set that contains all other sets including itself.. A set of substance to where all other sets including itself are comprised of.

INFINITE REGRESS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_regress
The unknown beginning or base/source of origin.. To where everything had to come from somewhere or something. Making all things infinitely regressive...

[bSOLIPSISM:[/b]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

A philosophy to were only one's self can be verified to exist.. And everything thought to exist is only of one's own imagining...

INFORMATION:
1) "Information is any type of sensory input and output or source to inquiry."

2) "Information as a concept has many meanings, from everyday usage to technical settings. The concept of information is closely related to notions of constraint, communication, control, data, form, instruction, knowledge, meaning, mental stimulus, pattern, perception, and representation."

3) "Information is any type of pattern that influences the formation or transformation of other patterns. In this sense, there is no need for a conscious mind to perceive, much less appreciate, the pattern." It's the sum representation of all things.. it's what gives things relevance, substance, and meaning... It's the core to anything that has an awareness or anything that exists...A self-awareness requires knowledge! An intelligence Must have knowledge to apply!, A Self identity must have knowledge to know of itself!

INTELLIGENCE:
1) Intelligence: efficient definition is: The ability to apply knowledge in order to perform better in an environment. Or the processing of knowledge to formulate a response to stimuli..
2) Wiki: "Intelligence (abbreviated int. or intel.) refers to -------- information with currency and relevance, and the abstraction, evaluation, and understanding of such information for its accuracy and value"

KNOWLEDGE:
1) Knowledge is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as (i) expertise, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject, (ii) what is known in a particular field or in total; facts and information or (iii) awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation
2) Simple efficient definition: The collection of information on a subject or experience processed and then stored which provides a base for mechanisms such as intelligence, reason, choice, or a response or even an awareness... to which a method of inquiry must be based on.

AWARENESS:
Wiki: “Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. In this level of consciousness, sense data can be confirmed by an observer without necessarily implying understanding. To receive and respond to input.

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The GOD Theory's Universal Flaw “Existence


EXISTENCE

EXISTENC is anything and everything without a person, or thing existing as a form of literal nothing.. It is also everywhere and anywhere without a place of actual non-existence... Existence exists because non-existence simply can not literally be a person, place, or thing of existence due to the fact that non-existence's own definition states itself does not exist..Existence represents 0 (zero), or the base to all things in, or of existence. It's dimension 0 (zero), or 0D from which all other dimensions spread out from...

DIMENSIONAL REPRESENTATION

We Can look at existence as a whole through dimensional representation...
We are comprised of the first 4 dimensions, and any substance within the first 4 dimensions.. A GOD would have to be a 5th Dimensional being, and this God would then logically be comprised of the first 5-7 dimensions... And the number of dimensions could be infinite to where each dimension has infinite containment.... hence 1D.xxxx to 2D and 2D.xxxx to 3D.xxxx.. Even if there is a limited number of Dimensions the last dimension in the chain would remain infinite.. A 5th Dimensional being could neither create existence or create and destroy any given Dimension that itself is comprised of.. A God is then not the creator of existence but could only be a mere manipulator of the lower dimensional planes...


GOD CREATES EXISTENCE ARGUMENT

The most obvious problem with religion and religious people is when they speak of a creator that supposedly created everything! This is not only impossible, but it is also requires the need to believe in the notion of reverse creationism..A GOD can not preexist existence to create existence so he himself can exist, or have a place of existence to exist in .. In all cases of religion, a GOD is considered "IN EXISTENCE". A Deity's own mind must have containment. Therefore, it's own mind can not wrap around itself to contain itself in order to represent a Universal Set, or represent existence as a whole. Thus, it matters not what dimension, reality, realm that place is that religious people might think their GOD resides in.. We can then logically argue that any Deity would be slave to the need of existence and a place of existence in order for itself to exist... All minds must have containment, and no mind could ever create the containers to themselves.. No mind could ever fully quantify their own containers or places of existence...

GOD IS EXISTENCE ARGUMENT

If everything is GOD, then everything would be self aware and a form of solipsism! We would then not be separate entities, or free agents from said GOD.. We would thus be GOD!.. So if you even try to agree that existence is God, You don't believe in Christianity.. The bible states that a GOD is it's own entity that resides in the spiritual world out side our plane of existence, and would exist in it's own plane of existence..'Kingdom of God" which would be just Another place of existence that also could not be quantified..

The GOD Theorists must pick between 2 options here: A or B without C.. (the bible states B )

A) God is existence
B) God is --->In<--- existence
C) Existence is existence (Universal Set of all sets)

A= we are all just gods own imagining...A [b]solipsist existence to where we don't really exist.. This would also mean That all things of existence and places of existence reside inside of a God's mind. This means we are also comprised of the substance of a God's mind. The belief of one mind to where all things in existence, or of existence are of it's own imagining..A false existence similar to any imaginary being we create our selves... However, even if you believe in the solipsist philosophy, a God's mind would still need a container to its mind. GOD would then logically still require something other than itself in order to exist...Thus, a God is not the answer to existence!.. A God simply fails to meet the demands of a “Universal Set or solve “Infinite regress

B= God is not the answer to existence!. And is thus likely false! It is self admitting that itself requires something other than itself in order to exist. Hence, it's to be IN existence, and in the need of existence... This proves that existence is not self aware. It's self admitting that a God could not be a “Universal set to existence.

C=[/b(more likely answer! This sates that a God is not the answer!.. This states that existence is the answer to itself.. Thus, existence as a whole meets the requirements of a “Universal set, and a solution to “infinite regress.. Existence is then, everything and anything, everywhere and anywhere, or is any place of existence without a person, place, or thing of actual non-existence... (We are all two difference glasses made form the same pile of sand) We can not be free agents of Existence since we are made from the substance of existence..

PARADOXES / QUESTIONS

1) If existence could be destroyed, could existence become non-existence?. And if non-existence becomes a reality, a place, or a thing of existence does it automatically become existence itself? Is non-existence possible as a literal person, place, or thing of existence?

2)If A God destroyed himself, or didn't exist, would existence cease to exist to become a person, place, or thing of non-existence? (See question 1)(See question 1)

3) Does GOD need existence to exist? Can a GOD preexist (not exist) to create existence (the container to its own existence)? *note the bible states that something can not be created from nothing*

If your answer is yes to the first question under #3, then the big light bulb should turn on above your head! A place of existence to exist, or a container to where itself can exist within existence... To have it's own separate Identity as an entity within it, or to have it's own domain you call heaven...

If you answer yes to the second question under #3, then you don't understand what it means to not exist


INFINITE REGRESS SOLVED

When we look for the answer to our existence, we look for the point of origin from where all things are created.. Infinite regress is the problem to where all things in existence come somewhere or something. The notion of not having a Universal source.. This problem is directly tied to the rule of a Universal set. To solve the problem of infinite regress, Existence as a whole can only come from itself, and be made from the substance of itself... Existence must not only contain itself, but it must also contain all other things in existence. The answer to existence must also agree to the notion that all thing in existence, and of existence, must be comprised of the substance of the “Universal Set to where all other things of existence are subsets of the “Universal Set.. The answer to our existence must be a Universal Set in order to solve “infinite regress In this case, existence itself is the answer to infinite regress. Only existence can solve infinite regress, or be the Universal Set of all other sets...Note: see “Dimensional Representation

Infinite Regress is solved by an impossible know as “non-existence. If you try to go through the 0 Dimesnional plane, you end up looping back to the 1st Dimensional Plane.. A loop to where non-existence is impossible.. So you can't go through 0D to get to a -1Dimensional plane of existence... If non-existence becomes a place or thing of existence, it automatically negates itself back to existence... It loops back to 0D and 1D... Thus, infinite regress is solved by a loop caused by an impossible to where infinite containment in an infinite container is possible. As represented above, infinite containment can be 1D.xxxx to 2d.xxxx to 3d.xxxx to 4d.xxxx to 5d.xxxx to infinity...

Example 1: (breaking down)
You can say nothing is in my cup... However, that is in literal terms false! You can not empty an empty cup of it's existence, or empty the cup of the space in the cup... Even if you smash the cup, the existence does not poor out because the Cup is in existence, and comprised of the substance of existence itself... You can say the cup no longer exists and that would still be false even if you pulled all it's atoms apart and dispersed them into space.. The cup still exists! To which made the cup does not go into non-existence, or become literal non-existence as a person, place, or thing of existence...

Hence, what once was is no longer what it once was. And now what once was, is now of something else in pieces or as a whole.. Or is what is missing, is only located elsewhere in pieces or as a whole. where is the coffee that I expect to fill my empty cup? Is it at the store? Is it still within the beans from which I brew it from?...

Example 2 (Decay):
If you cut a tree down, even if it's the last tree of its kind, can you say that tree no longer exists? The answer is, “no you can't state the tree no longer exists.. The tree becomes or transforms into something else. We can thus state that this tree is now; Firewood, ash, smoke, or energy. This is where it disperses, breaks down, or merge with other forms of energy and matter to where it become apart of something else... It never goes into a literal place of non-existence, or it never becomes a literal thing of non-existence...

The lowest something can break down into is the base substance of existence.. Or in number representation 0... It can never become non-existence or -1 Dimensional.. This is Because -1D = impossible.

UNIVERSAL SET / EVOLUTION
EVOLUTION PART 1

A God does not represent a “Universal Set (A God requires and relies on something other than itself to exist. This is including the container or place of existence for itself or for it's mind. Something other than itself to which it can neither create, destroy, or quantify) This is where a base of knowledge, a self awareness, an intelligence. a self identity, a place of existence or any mind in general, are all “subsets of the “Universal Set of EXISTENCE themselves. GOD can then not be a Universal set to existence. Even if you believe if a God was a set to where existence is a form solipsism, it could not contain its own mind, or wrap it's mind around itself...It would still require other sets, or subsets of existence to be a set itself.

A GOD must be -->in<-- existence in order to exist.. Thus, all minds need a “where in order to be “IN existence... Hence, A place of existence to exist regardless if that place is infinite or not...This is where any infinite place, dimension, or realm of existence is irrelevant, and are only subsets of existence themselves ...Thus, a “where is a key necessity for any self aware mind.. This would matter not if you think your mind or self awareness can transcend either. All minds must have a place of existence! Thus, no mind can be a universal set of existence, or be the “CREATOR of existence!

To be a Universal set, the thing that is the Universal set must literally “ be, and “contain anything and everything in, and of existence, including itself... Everything in existence would have to be made from it's substance.. And it would have to literally “be any place of existence without a literal place of non-existence.. Neither our minds, or even s supposed God's mind could ever represent a universal set regardless of how much manipulative power over any given place or thing of existence you think we or it may have.


PROCESS OF CREATION
EVOLUTION PART 2

Basic Religious model to existence:
GOD → Existence → self awareness → intelligence → knowledge → creation (matter. life, energy)

The ability to create without existence, information(knowledge), intelligence or self awareness.. Reverse creationism...

More likely model:
Existence → Formation of simple structures to more complex structures to mass to matter → formation of knowledge (RNA) → primal intelligence (ability to apply knowledge and respond to stimuli) → life → complex knowledge → Complex intelligence → awareness → simple self awareness → complete self awareness

The ability to create using a preexisting substance to which it's self is also made from. Supported by Quantum Electromagnetic Physics

INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE
EVOLUTION PART 3

According to the above models of creation, the God theory collapses because knowledge, Intelligence, or self awareness can not exist prior to knowledge. A God can not preexist in order to create the knowledge that itself needs for it's own awareness, identity, or intelligence. This would require reverse creationism to be possible! This is an obvious impossibility that can not be argued with.. Intelligence is only the ability to apply knowledge... Neither an awareness, nor an intelligence can exist without first the formation of knowledge...A god could not know who he is, be self aware, make a decision, or even make a choice without first having a base of inquiry (knowledge) that must form prior to it's own existence, awareness , identity, or intelligence..

Hence, the contradictory quote "Only God could know how to create knowledge" This is a prime example of reverse creationism!.. You can not have preexisting knowledge to create knowledge! Intelligence before knowledge is the most impossible, *ss backwards concept ever conceived.. ... A God can not be the answer to existence regardless to what anyone believes, and is likely false... A self awareness, "consciousness, or self Identity is on a NEED to KNOW BASIS..

INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE FORMATION
EVOLUTION PART 4

Every living organism has a base knowledge from which it has formed and organized through a process of increasing complexity of chemistry over millions of years.. From Non-living matter, to living active matter... Each living organism has this to where a base of inquiry is formed to give it the ability to respond to stimuli.. To be able to react, as well as formulate increasingly more complex responses through an increasing base of knowledge that is formulated by its interactions with its environment and itself..

This evidence is undeniable!.. From a single celled or unaware organism, to the evolved and more complex organism with a simple awareness.. This leads us to the human species with a complete self awareness... Intelligence is only the ability to respond to stimuli and the ability to apply it's knowledge to better suit it's environment... This is where behaviors are tied to intelligence and the formulation of a larger base of Knowledge... Behaviors are the link between stimuli, knowledge, and intelligence. This is where intelligence and behavior are directly linked to creating a larger base of knowledge of inquiry so an organism can better respond to its environment...Also note: No organism can posses the sum of all knowledge.. Thus, failures are likely to cause a species to go instinct.. The failure to acquire or apply necessary knowledge in order to survive..

RNA EVIDENCE:
EVOLUTION PART 5

RNA = the evolution of information as we understand it... RNA is a chemical reaction that produces an active form of matter that has the similar functions of DNA.. DNA being the more evolved version of
A...
A proposes that a world filled with life based on ribonucleic acid. (RNA) predates the current world of life based on deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA).
A, which can both store information like DNA and act as an enzyme, This could very well have supported cellular or pre-cellular life..

Wiki:
"RNA is a very similar molecule to DNA, and only has two chemical differences. The overall structure of
A and DNA are immensely similarâ€â€Âone strand of DNA and one of
A can bind to form a double helical structure. This makes the storage of information in
A possible in a very similar way to the storage of information in DNA."

We can conclude from these chemical reactions represent the cause and effect process.. Todays DNA and calculated processing of information is more likely the result of this cause and effect process than the wild notion of some magical divine being of intervention... It states that information must first form through formation (the cause and effect process) before it can become a structure complex enough to be capable of processing other information in a calculated process.. Complexity must first evolve before it can begin to process information in a self aware intelligent manner.. The proof in in every living organism...
A is in every living thing.

UNDERSTANDING INFORMATION FORMATION:
EVOLUTION PART 6

We human beings seem unable understand information formation because we think information has to be the result of processing by something with intelligence... Since our brains are developed to process information, it can not quantify in many cases the idea of information developing it's own structures and meanings through the combining, or the merging of other pieces of information in a process called formation.. A cause and effect process vs a calculated intelligent process.. We also seem to fail to understand that anything or place of existence, or anything in or of existence, could be considered a form of information, or a source of information.. All places and things of existence have information to offer! Thus all things can be considered pieces of information themselves in a representative or interactive sense. Hence, information isn't just merely a concept of data or mathematics! Information is matter, mass, color, energy, or simply existence or place of existence...

Example:
“Two colors merging to form another color.. Or two color patterns coming together to form another pattern of color. Hence, the cause and effect process to where color is a representation of information even if it were black and white... Sound is another prime example..

MIND CONTAINMENT EVIDENCE:
EVOLUTION PART 7

When we think of mind containment we can agree that neither you or I can share the same mind.. We all have separate containers to our own minds within existence.. For us to be individuals and free agents, we can not share the same mind.. A self awareness needs a container.. For GOD to be it's own entity apart from us, it must have it's own body of containment... It can not be the same body we all share and call existence.. Thus, we can conclude that existence is not self aware, nor was it ever... There is no evidence of intelligence or self awareness outside the biological container, or any given artificial container.....

This evidence may be proof that self-awareness only exists in biological life to where separate containers to self awareness are possible without becoming Solipsism! If people think GOD is existence then we are all simply Gods own imagination arguing against itself.. That would make Christianity a form of solipsism.. However, Christianity can not be a Universal set to existence even if it were solipsism simply because a God can not contain it's own mind, or wrap it's mind around itself to contain all other things including itself...It would still require, and be reliant on other sets to be a set itself. These subsets include: Knowledge, intelligence, self awareness, place of existence, or an individual identity apart from us..

We can then conclude that intelligence and self awareness can not ignite without first going through a process of formation.. Thus. evolving from a cause and effect process. Formation leads to a more complex structure that in itself also leads to the formation of a developed complex structure with the ability to process other pieces of information in a calculated process.. Cause and effect to calculated processing... This is proven in every living thing!.. At what point does an unborn human child become self aware...? when does simple awareness ignite from unawareness..? When does full self awareness become complete?

This is key evidence that shows that a self awareness must first be learned or established.. A new born baby is a prime example of simple awareness that slowly develops a complete full self awareness... It must establish it's own existence to itself , and be fully aware of it.

Philosophical View

The purpose to life is to exist.. And to exist is life. Existence is Life with us as it's awareness to itself.. All individual free minds without one universal mind in control. In essence, there is nothing in a state of still... The earth is moving and the atoms within are always in motion...Existence is as ever flowing as is the information and energy that gives it representational value and substance... What is still only appears to be still.. Life is that of a Universal Set without contradiction... Existence is God without a thought or mind to which forms the substance of life as a representation of itself.. We are of existence... We are GOD and at 1 with GOD... 1+X = 1.. the Formula for Love... To be unique is to form without fabrication.. Existence is without a mind of moral judgment, fore it is unconditionally pure. I am the product of it's substance and I represent the awareness within to give it self representation... The sheer beauty of existence it's self can neither be created or fabricated.. It's a glory to itself... Love to my existence and to all of existence be my love.

Educational links:

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/07/what-critics-of.html
http://www.usoe.k12.ut.us/CURR/science/sciber00/8th/matter/sciber/chemtype.htm
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/Restriction-Enzymes-545
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/Eukaryotic-Genome-Complexity-437
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/Chemical-Structure-of-RNA-348
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/Translation-DNA-to-mRNA-to-Protein-393
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Origin%20of%20Life/current_scientific_studies.html

Conclusion:

Creationists must not only answer the paradoxes, but they must also prove that existence would actually need a GOD in order to exist vs a God needing existence to exist.. They must prove reverse creationism is possible by example, without the use or need of knowledge or information... They must also prove that non-existence can exist as person, place, or thing of existence (note the contradiction)... They must prove that you can preexist what you yourself would require in order to exist...Is it possible to create that which yourself requires to exist, be self aware, or even be intelligent?... Hence, How can you Know how to create knowledge itself? Reverse creationism is just plain silly!

No body is a perfect circle..We are all imperfect beings of an imperfect Universe..

[flaviusaetius]

I'm an atheist because I don't believe in gods in the way that most people think of gods, but I'm also agnostic because I believe in the slight possibility of some intelligent design of the universe and we just happen to be in it, for some or no purpose at all. If there is such a creator then it's also possible that we may some day come to know or understand it to extent but never completely, if we get to know it then we have to wonder where does it comes from, so the universe will just continue to get bigger as we know more. Or maybe it's beyond our reality and we'll never come close to understand it.

As for religion, I can't say it's good or bad, I see it as a step in our social evolution. It is the only tool we had to build civilizations upon. It brought people togheter allowing to share knowledge giving rise to science. It is a form of control but some form of control is necessary for civilization, we've seen what happened when Rome fell. Eventually we'll need to do away with it or be doomed by it. Hopefully as science and rational thinking advances it will eventually fade out.

[kafei]

[kanbay1 (deleted)]

Here is the real story...after awhile Jesus and his gang were noticing that his appeal was waning. For awhile they could stir interest by "healing cripples, making the blind see, etc" by using plants and actors in the crowds. So Jesus, ever the showman, said, "I know! I will rise from the dead!" So they went around and finally found a guy that looked a lot like Jesus and concocted this whole scene with the Romans. That is why Judas had to identify Jesus to the Romans, since he did not look exactly like Jesus. Sounded something like this.... "There that's Jesus!" "Who him?" "Yeah yeah that is him!" "You sure? Kind of looks different..." "No no...that is him..I know!" "Well ok if you say so.." Then after Jesus died on the cross and was interred in the tomb the real Jesus came out and did the whole rising from he dead routine. And Judas was murdered by the apostles who faked his suicide because he wanted more money to keep up with the charade! With all the money pouring in form donations to his religion collected by his apostles Jesus moved away and lived the rest of his life wealthy with numerous wives and children.